On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:27:18 -0400, xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote to Freelance
Traveller:

>On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 8:21 PM Jeff Zeitlin <xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com>
>wrote:

>> "It's not something you want to face." That depends on circumstance; if
>> it's a borderline case where one could justify either a severe masting or a
>> full court-martial, if you're offered the choice - usually "If you take a
>> masting, I'm going to sentence you to X, vs facing a full court, which will
>> likely drum you out" - you take the masting.

>Yet my statement stands - still not something you want to face (explicitly:
>You don't want to be in the situation that leads to this (or any more
>severe) form of discipline). The best course is to steer clear of
>situations that will produce these types of proceedings...

OK, I will definitely concede the point on the general principle; you'd
have to be a certain kind of masochist to disagree at that level...

>I am guessing you'd still agree avoiding (however that might have been
>possible) any such run ins with the discipline regimes would have been
>preferable...

Unquestionably - the best course is always "don't poo the screwch" in the
first place...

>> In the NYPD, we call them "Command Discipline" ('CD'), and there are two
>> classes: A 'Schedule A' CD will "fall off" your record after six months, so
>> if you keep your nose clean for that long, it'd be like it never happened;
>> a 'Schedule B' is permanent. An A can kill a promotion or 'plum' assignment
>> for _this_ cycle, but will probably fall off by the next cycle; a B can
>> kill your chances for the plum assignment permanently, and while it cannot
>> (because of New York State civil service law) bar you from standing for
>> promotion, it _can_ be used as a deciding factor (adverse) between you and
>> a candidate who stands at the same score on the qualifying examination.
>>
>
>That seems to me to be adverse to the concept of paying your debt and then
>being treated reasonably there after.
>
>I do see a merit in knowing someone had an issue/bad decisions/situation
>come up in the past that was troublesome. But to use that adversely many
>years after the fact in judgments (vs. using it to follow up during the
>process of application for promotion to ensure the individual has learned
>their lesson and would not repeat the offense) seems unjust.

Unfortunately, because of the way civil service works - or, more
accurately, the way the civil service unions react to anything that
involves a manager's opinion - decisions like this are often reduced to
ticking off tickyboxen. Note that I said that it _can_ be used as an
adverse factor; unions notwithstanding, managers making
hiring/promotion/assignment decisions are not _required_ to consider it.

>It always seems to me, so called 'justice' systems are usually bi-polar.
>They espouse wanting to be rehabilitative and to let people account for
>their actions and then be allowed to once again be treated the same as
>others, but in practice, once marked, one may never be treated normally
>again.

If you make a distinction between torts and crimes, the problem really
lives in the fact that for the things that should be _crimes_ (rather than
_torts_ against the social contract), people generally don't want
_justice_; they want to be forgiven with only symbolic punishment if they
were the offender, or they want [generally excessive] retribution if they
were the victim (or could perceive themselves as the victim). We don't
_really_ want "justice" as in the punishment fitting the crime and ensuring
that the offender will know not to do it again next time.  I will note that
I am fully on-board with respect to retribution; I have seen enough - and
enough recidivism - that I do not believe that rehabilitation as a primary
objective can be reliably or effectively implemented.

I am willing to discuss this further, _but_ _not_ _here_. This is a
Traveller mailing list, not a mostly-American-politics mailing list.

®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2020. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
    The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource
xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com
http://www.freelancetraveller.com

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