On 25/8/25 05:45, kaladorn at gmail.com (via tml list) wrote:
> <snip>
> The gist of what I was getting in return was:
>
> There are many reasons that Megacorps, governments, and other actors
> would not provide medical cures or even treatments, despite (as Alex
> suggest) that it would be smart to do so. The 3I is a government of
> men, not laws. And 3I is also full of corruption (many examples over
> the editions). And as 3I largely leaves planets/planets themselves to
> their own affairs, the leaders and NGOs in those planets/systems may
> have their own reasons to overprice, prevent distribution, or
> otherwise do things within their own planets.
>
> Here are some of the reasons and actors:
>
>   * Powerful nobles muddling in for their own reasons (petty or otherwise)
>   * Powerful leaders of planets and systems muddling in for their own
>     reasons (petty or otherwise)
>   * Powerful NGOs in for the own reasons (petty or otherwise)
>   * Religious leaders with large reach muddling in for their own
>     reasons (pick many strange reasons that all tie to control)
>   * Foreign actors muddling in for their own reasons (probably for
>     'war by other means')
>   * Any entity that might be concerned with liabilities for providing
>     medical cures where blow back (for real concerns or from other
>     reasons) are in play
>
> Here as some of the tactics:
>
>   * Intellectual Property (owned by Megacorps or individual planets
>     that developed these things) - same reasons as seen in the real
>     world and in the 3I where we see many harmful or at least uncaring
>     decisions (3I government, nobles, megacorps, etc) - even have some
>     Amber or Red designation and some may have been put in place
>     punitively or some corrupt reason
>
>   * Collusion in pricing by oligopolies (This is not trade being
>     stopped - nothing in Traveller says that  a good can't just be too
>     expensive for most - if you look at trade tables, you sure see
>     examples of that and there has also been seen adventures relating
>     to medical situations which involve Megacorps and other sources of
>     drugs doing something unethical)
>
>   * Agreements on distribution of product between Megacorps or other
>     large actors (It's not that anyone stops trade, its just that
>     these Megacorps just 'happen' to only sell their med in an areas
>     the nearby Megacorps don't and reciprocally 'this just happens' in
>     return) - In this version, one version of a med is provided in one
>     area, another in a different place. This probably could be a thing
>     someone could call restraint of trade, but since all the big
>     players that have the scientific data and that have the
>     distribution engines are owned by some people who want to maximize
>     the costs, 'its just happens' (aka the Megacorps and other
>     entities know what's going on)
>
>   * The reality that powerful nobles, powerful leaders and others very
>     often are getting good incomes and that's more important to them
>     than exactly what is done (Capitalism basically operates by
>     pursuing 'within the rules PLUS as much of the grey areas PLUS the
>     disallowed but not likely to get you caught').
>
>   * Surge price (systems that drop prices to a point when goods are
>     not moving and increase prices when there is demand or there is a
>     shortage [incidentally or intentionally]) are possible within the 3I
>
>   * Powerful actors (Megacorps, powerful factors, local politicians or
>     leaders, religious leaders, and NGOs) can buy up or destroy key
>     reagents such as to limit or prevent a particular part of a cure
>     due to the lack of said reagent and this can happen without anyone
>     involve trade between planets - if you can't get the reagents from
>     the local planet/system governments or the reagent has been badly
>     savaged or wiped out, its not directly an assault on trade, just
>     on reagents
>
>   * Tying other benefits (say building schools or the like from the
>     real world or in a conceivable situation, getting a cure or
>     treatment) for local planetary/system governments (or their
>     leaders or for populations) require (not officially of course)
>     those recipients also join a religion (ignoring the existing
>     religious setup before the offer was made)
>
>   * Underhanded actors (Megacorps and others) may create maladies
>     which they quickly then provide to afflicted populations for a
>     'reasonable cost for the newly discovered treatment' while also
>     hiding the fact they have a real cure (because said real cure only
>     provides a one-time payment, treatments are evergreen... money
>     coming in over the long run is often preferred) - totally illegal,
>     but a lot of corporations have hid dark projects in covert
>     locations inside and outside of the 3I.
>
>   * Religious groups, cultural groups, rich folks who have some $$$
>     and can make more by firing out misinformation for their own
>     reasons, people that listened to influencers, people who have poor
>     educations, people who are not thinking rationally (often happens
>     to varying degrees) may either try to prevent treatments or cures
>     for unreasonable reasons (just look on the internet) or they may
>     convince their followers that the sky is pink (some odd belief
>     like 'this treatment makes your left foot fall off') and the
>     followers buy into it and thus doing take available meds
>     (sometimes to take another thing that could be harmful but can
>     bring $$$ to the person or group who is pulling the strings in the
>     shadows
>
>
> Our real world provides examples of most of those things (or something
> close to).
>
> We know that large pharma in our world have buried cures in favour of
> treatments. Corporations buy up treatments, procedures, and develop
> them and then bury them if the can make more money from what they have
> at the current moment. Corporations also buy up labs, treatments,
> cures from competitors so they never see the light of day - what's bad
> to your competitor is good for your company. Corporations can also
> bury things until they can figure out how to maximize profits and
> cures aren't that and even some treatments aren't.  We know that
> corporations have hidden side effects or let out drugs that they knew
> had long term harms without disclosing.
>
> We know that governments have prevented treatments or any medical
> supplies (or even food) for that government's reason.
>
> We have patent trolls buying up from the original companies or
> universities and jumped the cost of the meds by 2 to 10 times.
>
> We know that religious groups have tied aid to conversions.
>
> Having seen these examples and more in the real word, I can see so
> many ways that meds don't get distributed that I think that's more
> likely to be what the 3I looks like than Alex's TU.
>
> Alex's (logical and human) view in his GURPS Traveller TU is a lot
> smarter but I don't see that in our world and I see many of the
> reasons that wouldn't happen based on what I've seen of the Classic
> Traveller universe and the adventures and products put out over the
> years.
>
> And to be clear, I'd rather live in Alex's TU than the 3I - given what
> I've see of the 3I and in our real world.
>
> But like Star Trek's idea that money can be done away with ... I'm not
> sure we'll ever get rid of money or the intention to keep the other
> guy down while you get rich.
>
> Just my own example of corporation's behaviour:
>
> ex: My wife has back/leg problems from cancer and other causes and
> there are two treatments - one that have you taking 12-16 needles
> every 3 weeks (with a couple bad days as it wears off and when the new
> one is injected...so she loses 3-4 days ever 21) and the second
> treatment is a spinal (1-4 needles) that takes about the same down
> time every 8-12 weeks. The clinic my wife went to lied to the patients
> (saying the second procedure wasn't available due to untrue reasons)
> because when you got 12-16 needles into your back every 3rd week, the
> clinic made more money - for the visits and for use of more meds in
> the injections - despite the fact is was worse for the patient's
> well-being.
>
>
kaladorn,

I guess that I see noblesse oblige being stronger (and honoured more in
the observance than the breach) in at least some parts of MGTU than you
(seem to) do in YTU - thus at least some subsector governments supplying
mid-end panimmunity for all worlds in their demesne.  Or in a "Wounded
Colossus"-style ATL after Strephon regains the throne and has to
re-found the 3I.

However, just because (frinstance) the _Five Sisters_ subsector
government does so, that doesn't (of itself) mean the _Mora_ subsector
government does.  The Daryens would probably do so, given their greater
focus on the collective over the individual.

Also real-world, you have the existence of monopsonies (such as the
healthcare systems of developed nations _other_ than the USA).   That
would tend to counteract the shenanigans you mentioned _somewhat_. 
Again, that's a concern between the tension of a TU which is good to
adventure in, vs a TU you might want to _live_ in.  You yourself said it.

I don't think the communism of C24 Star Trek, up to and including the
abolition of the _concept_ of private property (cf Old Baldy _not
grokking_ the idea that a revivee would want to check on their
investment portfolio), let alone state control of comms and transport,
would work - there would need to be _some_ method of allocating resources.

Again IMGTU, the juggernaut of Iderati (where a G3TL12 hi pop world,
Iderati V, is _lost in the noise_ of the system's G3TL13 mainworld)
doesn't top up the subsector-government-provided panimmunity for the
~30-40 billion odd people in lower socioeconomic classes (at G3TL12),
just for the ~10 billion or so in upper socioeconomic classes (at
G3TL13).  This is _despite_ being a place where a bug that evolves to
cause top-end panimmunity a problem and subsequently escaping out-system
would cause all _sorts_ of mayhem across at least the subsector, if not
further.

Alex