Ian, yes, I see your point. Its been some time since I opened High Guard.
Thank you.On 25 August 2014 13:32, Ian Whitchurch <ian.whitchurch@gmail.com> wrote:
One reason massive military starships exist in Classis Trav is because size is an important defense in High Guard, because of the "automatic criticals is size smaller than weapon factor" rule.Lets take, for example, this commercial starshipShip: Jacques CoeurClass: ConsignerType: Cargo HaulerArchitect: Iniigi TalanakaTech Level: 11USPAK-K521243-070000-80007-0 MCr 4,220.919 10 KTonsBat Bear 5 1 1 Crew: 66Bat 5 1 1 TL: 11Cargo: 6,045 Passengers: 12 Low: 30 Emergency Low: 80 Fuel: 2,200 EP: 200 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 10Craft: 1 x 50T NoneFuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel PurificationBackups: 1 x Model/4 ComputerArchitects Fee: MCr 42.209 Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,376.735It'll shrug off a lot of laser fire. On the other hand, it's fac 8 missile bay will break a small pirate in half - and thats only allocating about 1% of ship volume to defense, the equivalents of 2 turrets on a 200 dton ship.This ship is more-or-less self-escorting, and still comes in at 60% cargo by volume at jump-2, and has 1 crewman per 100 dtons of cargo ... while built at TL11.On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Greg Chalik <mrg3105@gmail.com> wrote:
Greg:
Length of trade though is not as significant.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Do you mean 'length of time that the trade line has been in operation' or the physical distance of the trade line?
My point was that, eventually, here on Earth, many places, that were dependant upon imported glass, eventually gained the ability to produce it domestically.
Now, how long does/did it take for that to happen?
I see the same process w/i the TU (incl the 3I) *unless* the demand is so low that domestic production never happened.
Hence there is quite a bit of interstellar trade but never a high enough volume to require MT's massive bulk haulers.Length of time.Lets consider some other commodity like porcelain.
By the late-19th century England had a wonderful porcelain industry going, and exporting, etc. having stolen some production innovations from the Chinese.Inexplicably the Japanese pottery became an artistic 'rage'. Nothing English manufacturers could do would 'shake it'. Some went out of business, others joined in.
My point - economics is not a rational 'business', and is not 'scientific'.================================================================================================
Greg:
Are you are
referring to the present day Murano manufacture? Would
anyone even know what glass is several thousand years from
now outside of archaeologists and art historians?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Well, the analogy would work better if specific individual products aren't specified.
(The 'glass' example was NOT introduced by me, BTW.)
My position is that once volume of a particular product reaches a certain 'tipping' point, then in-system production would supplant it.
And, that point would be low enough that MT's massive CIVILIAN bulk transports would not exist.
Now, that doesn't preclude giant MILITARY vessels of all kinds as they serve a completely different purpose than the civilian ones.Ok, but how would that explain the consistent growth in the size of commercial cargo and passenger vessels while military vessels on average (outside of the US aircraft carriers) declined in size?
I have a friend who designs yachts for a living. These are about the size of an 18th century 3rd rate warship! At the time, a yacht was a single-mast pleasure craft rarely meant to take more than six passengers/crew.
=========================================================
Greg:
Ok, so moving
people, and there was once and may be again such a trade,
had to be moved as bio-cargo. And?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
I have the impression that you may be thinking that I am referring to a sort of 'slave trade' but I am not.
I am referring to the periodic transfer of personnel & dependants (even whole households for the 'higher-ups'?) that any large military, governmental, or civilian organisation would routinely make.
This would require a large number of 'liner' type starships & since all the CT designs I've seen can also carry a small but significant amount of cargo, they would be transporting some cargo as along all those people.
Side Note: My father was a USAAF/USAF pilot & I grew up 'in' that system. Typically, every three years, my family was uprooted & shifted, lock, stock, & barrel, anywhere from 100's of miles to 1/2 was around the world. Every summer, cuz that was when there was no school, there was a massive flurry of activity at the airfield as families came and went. While the bulk of this was dome during the summer 'break' from school, it actually went on all year long, esp when dealing w/ personnel w/o dependents, or other considerations. (sometimes families were moved in the middle of the school year).It doesn't matter if the population was shifted willingly or not - the important factor is volume.By the way, just in case people have a moral problem with slavery, consider the slave's alternative. In Africa, unless you were a fairly young woman AND the victorious tribe could muster the resources to support you, you would be 'adopted'. Everyone else were killed, and some eaten. Slavery at least offered some chance of survival.
Moving people about by the US DoD is not something I find particularly wise from my current work point of view where all the people I need to deal with are relative amateurs despite senior ranks.
===============================================================
Greg:
The size of the 'Trader' vessel is entirely relative
to the cargo. Ever tried to deliver the hull of a combat
cruiser elsewhere for the fitting of engines? Original
engines 'melted' due to accident, so the
'job' was delivery of salvage for a refit. There are
not a lot of systems that can supply engines like that on
short notice you know.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Military 'Jump Tugs' would satisfy that need if the hull were to be 'towed' to the nearest naval base/shipyard.
Alternatively, a military 'tender' capable of performing the repairs might be dispatched. (similar to the 'tenders' &, or the 'floating drydocks' the USN has used)
Note: I've never disputed the military's need for massive starships.Military tenders usually operate with fleets.'jump Tugs'? Perhaps worthy of a separate thread as I would love to know how one constructs such a thing.
In the adventure above (many years ago) we went and found a ship about the right size to pull the mass + 20%. Than we had the ship stripped of everything not essential and sold that off to get some Cr. to enter the bid tender with the Military. Our 'ship' now just the 20% of its former self was than jumped to the location of the salvage, at which point the adventure just got started (again) [another story]
It seems to me that massive military starships come from the 'because we can' rules.============================================================On 25 August 2014 00:50, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <nobody@simplelists.com> wrote:
http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=JydxSB9tZc6TS63HiAHJcg6SAwighNGJThis email was sent from yahoo.com which does not allow forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the sender's email address (philpugliese@yahoo.com) has been replaced with a dummy one. The original message follows:
Responses inserted below;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 8/23/14, Greg Chalik <mrg3105@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic
To: tml@simplelists.com
Date: Saturday, August 23, 2014, 5:25 PM
Greg:
Length of trade though is not as significant.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Do you mean 'length of time that the trade line has been in operation' or the physical distance of the trade line?
My point was that, eventually, here on Earth, many places, that were dependant upon imported glass, eventually gained the ability to produce it domestically.
Now, how long does/did it take for that to happen?
I see the same process w/i the TU (incl the 3I) *unless* the demand is so low that domestic production never happened.
Hence there is quite a bit of interstellar trade but never a high enough volume to require MT's massive bulk haulers.
================================================================================================
Greg:
Are you are
referring to the present day Murano manufacture? Would
anyone even know what glass is several thousand years from
now outside of archaeologists and art historians?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Well, the analogy would work better if specific individual products aren't specified.
(The 'glass' example was NOT introduced by me, BTW.)
My position is that once volume of a particular product reaches a certain 'tipping' point, then in-system production would supplant it.
And, that point would be low enough that MT's massive CIVILIAN bulk transports would not exist.
Now, that doesn't preclude giant MILITARY vessels of all kinds as they serve a completely different purpose than the civilian ones.
=========================================================
Greg:
Ok, so moving
people, and there was once and may be again such a trade,
had to be moved as bio-cargo. And?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
I have the impression that you may be thinking that I am referring to a sort of 'slave trade' but I am not.
I am referring to the periodic transfer of personnel & dependants (even whole households for the 'higher-ups'?) that any large military, governmental, or civilian organisation would routinely make.
This would require a large number of 'liner' type starships & since all the CT designs I've seen can also carry a small but significant amount of cargo, they would be transporting some cargo as along all those people.
Side Note: My father was a USAAF/USAF pilot & I grew up 'in' that system. Typically, every three years, my family was uprooted & shifted, lock, stock, & barrel, anywhere from 100's of miles to 1/2 was around the world. Every summer, cuz that was when there was no school, there was a massive flurry of activity at the airfield as families came and went. While the bulk of this was dome during the summer 'break' from school, it actually went on all year long, esp when dealing w/ personnel w/o dependents, or other considerations. (sometimes families were moved in the middle of the school year).
===============================================================
Greg:
The size of the 'Trader' vessel is entirely relative
to the cargo. Ever tried to deliver the hull of a combat
cruiser elsewhere for the fitting of engines? Original
engines 'melted' due to accident, so the
'job' was delivery of salvage for a refit. There are
not a lot of systems that can supply engines like that on
short notice you know.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Military 'Jump Tugs' would satisfy that need if the hull were to be 'towed' to the nearest naval base/shipyard.
Alternatively, a military 'tender' capable of performing the repairs might be dispatched. (similar to the 'tenders' &, or the 'floating drydocks' the USN has used)
Note: I've never disputed the military's need for massive starships.
============================================================
On 24 August 2014
09:39, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <nobody@simplelists.com>
wrote:
I never said there would NOT be a significant amount of long
distance trade.
But it would never, just as it was NOT the case in the 17th
C, be large enough to require the humongous bulk transports
introduced w/ MT.
As far as the glass produced in Venice goes;
Did Venice hyper-specialize in glass production & import
everything else?
Also, didn't there come a time, remember the TU has been
'trading' for thousands & thousands of year,
when glass production eventually migrated to the places that
once had to rely on imports from Venice?
How long did that take?
As a side note, it occurs to me that the one thing that
can't be 'transferred' is people. People will
have to be transported. I imagine the military, just as the
US military does now, will be constantly moving people
around.
I recall that when GDW first published 'Merchant
Prince'(CT), it was mentioned that they used a BASIC prg
running on an Apple to help develop the system. I got them
to send me a copy & ran it quite a bit.
It indicated that there was a significant amount of civilian
passenger traffic, even to-from less-important worlds.
Also, the 'liner could also carry a small amount of
cargo which could make the difference 'tween making or
losing money on some trips.
Also, location come into play. For example, Rhylanor, in the
'Marches, never sees FreeTraders as the nearest system
is J2.
Now, considering Rhylanors UWP, plus the fact that it
endured a lengthy siege during the 3rdFW, it appears that it
is largely self-sufficient.
I can see a large amount of both civilian, military, &
gov (it's a subsector cap) traffic, both cargo &
passenger.
Enough for starships larger than the various 'Traders?
Definitely.
Enough for the gigantic bulk freighters from MT? Not even
remotely close.
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