I see your Traveller Adventure, and raise you a High Guard and a Striker (complete with world GWP calculations, local currency values and estimates for imports of hi-tech spare parts. Best supplement on the economics of Trav until G:T FT).

And then we have Library Data, with it's mentions of Tukera with it's "mammoth" liners that are apparently immune, due to their armament and size, from attacks by small pirates !

Incidentally, the minimum bridge size in CT is a killer for the economics of small starships. If the cargo can wait for the next scheduled service, then its going to be ~10% cheaper to ship it.

As an aside, Ive got a personal advantage in this. I've lived somewhere with actual Subsidised Merchant service, where the boat arrived once a month, and if you wanted your car on the island on a schedule that didnt fit, then you were out of luck (King Island - in Trav terms I'd call it D669364-6 - it had light aircraft service, a slew of fishing boats, and a subsidised merchant that went Burnie-Naracoopa once a month).

But yeah, you can break the economics, you can spindle the Imperium's hands-off policies into a pretzel, or you can accept with the Traveller universe we share, we'll get an ecosystem of small traders living off the scraps the big boys dont want.



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <nobody@simplelists.com> wrote:
This email was sent from yahoo.com which does not allow forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the sender's email address (philpugliese@yahoo.com) has been replaced with a dummy one. The original message follows:

Nope, you've gotten it all wrong;

I see an Imperium as detailed in CT, with many worlds with many differing levels of tech & industrialization, & with many differing levels of POP & GOV.

There is also a vigorous & robust amount of interstellar trade which does NOT require the 'late-comer' humungous bulk transports only introduced w/ MT.

I just found my old 'Traveller Adventure' book (c.1982 so CT) & looked at the few ship designs it had;
200dT Freetrader J1 82t cargo
400dT Subsidized Merchant J1 200t cargo
600dT Subsidized Liner J3 129t cargo 25 staterooms + 20 low
(I usually replaced the '20 low' w/ more cargo or staterooms)
I also recall a 1000dT J4 sub-liner  w/ a lot more staterooms & <100t cargo
And then there's the 200dT J2 'trader, detailed in the 'Twilight's Peak' adv, which had reduced cargo capacity.
I've also designed 1000dT (original LBB dT limit) J1 & J2 Merchants w/ commensurately higher cargo capacity.

But I can see your problem, Ian.

You imagine a TU that just can't get along w/o those gigantic bulk haulers & which not only requires them but stringently enforces their utilization no matter what.

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/24/14, Ian Whitchurch <ian.whitchurch@gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic
 To: tml@simplelists.com
 Date: Sunday, August 24, 2014, 3:32 PM

 Phil,
 I see your
 problem.
 You imagine a Traveller
 universe where all planets are equally industrialised, and
 where you dont have radically different levels of local
 technology. Add in the abolition of economies of scale in
 manufacturing and the non-existance of interstellar traders
 who dont see advantages in figuring whats unique from a
 world that could be shipped elsewhere for profit, and you
 get an Imperium without trade.

 Such an Imperium doesnt
 need cargo vessels, of course.


 On Mon,
 Aug 25, 2014 at 12:50 AM, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <nobody@simplelists.com>
 wrote:

 This email was sent from yahoo.com which does not allow
 forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the
 sender's email address (philpugliese@yahoo.com)
 has been replaced with a dummy one. The original message
 follows:




 Responses inserted below;



 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 On Sat, 8/23/14, Greg Chalik
 <mrg3105@gmail.com>
 wrote:



  Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic

  To: tml@simplelists.com

  Date: Saturday, August 23, 2014, 5:25 PM



  Greg:



  Length of trade though is not as significant.

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Phil:



 Do you mean 'length of time that the trade line has been
 in operation' or the physical distance of the trade
 line?



 My point was that, eventually, here on Earth, many places,
 that were dependant upon imported glass, eventually gained
 the ability to produce it domestically.

 Now, how long does/did it take for that to happen?

 I see the same process w/i the TU (incl the 3I) *unless* the
 demand is so low that domestic production never happened.

 Hence there is quite a bit of interstellar trade but never a
 high enough volume to require MT's massive bulk
 haulers.

 ================================================================================================

  Greg:



  Are you are

  referring to the present day Murano manufacture? Would

  anyone even know what glass is several thousand years
 from

  now outside of archaeologists and art historians?

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Phil:



 Well, the analogy would work better if specific individual
 products aren't specified.

 (The 'glass' example was NOT introduced by me,
 BTW.)

 My position is that once volume of a particular product
 reaches a certain 'tipping' point, then in-system
 production would supplant it.

 And, that point would be low enough that MT's massive
 CIVILIAN bulk transports would not exist.

 Now, that doesn't preclude giant MILITARY vessels of all
 kinds as they serve a completely different purpose than the
 civilian ones.

 =========================================================

  Greg:



  Ok, so moving

  people, and there was once and may be again such a
 trade,

  had to be moved as bio-cargo. And?

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Phil:



 I have the impression that you may be thinking that I am
 referring to a sort of 'slave trade' but I am
 not.

 I am referring to the periodic transfer of personnel &
 dependants (even whole households for the
 'higher-ups'?) that any large military,
 governmental, or civilian organisation would routinely
 make.

 This would require a large number of 'liner' type
 starships & since all the CT designs I've seen can
 also carry a small but significant amount of cargo, they
 would be transporting some cargo as along all those
 people.


 Side Note: My father was a USAAF/USAF pilot & I grew up
 'in' that system. Typically, every three years, my
 family was uprooted & shifted, lock, stock, &
 barrel, anywhere from 100's of miles to 1/2 was around
 the world. Every summer, cuz that was when there was no
 school, there was a massive flurry of activity at the
 airfield as families came and went. While the bulk of this
 was dome during the summer 'break' from school, it
 actually went on all year long, esp when dealing w/
 personnel w/o dependents, or other considerations.
 (sometimes families were moved in the middle of the school
 year).


 ===============================================================

  Greg:



  The size of the 'Trader' vessel is entirely
 relative

  to the cargo. Ever tried to deliver the hull of a
 combat

  cruiser elsewhere for the fitting of engines? Original

  engines 'melted' due to accident, so the

  'job' was delivery of salvage for a refit. There
 are

  not a lot of systems that can supply engines like that
 on

  short notice you know.

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Phil:



 Military 'Jump Tugs' would satisfy that need if the
 hull were to be 'towed' to the nearest naval
 base/shipyard.

 Alternatively, a military 'tender' capable of
 performing the repairs might be dispatched. (similar to the
 'tenders' &, or the 'floating drydocks'
 the USN has used)

 Note: I've never disputed the military's need for
 massive starships.

 ============================================================



  On 24 August 2014

  09:39, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <nobody@simplelists.com>

  wrote:





  I never said there would NOT be a
 significant amount of long

  distance trade.



  But it would never, just as it was NOT the case in the
 17th

  C, be large enough to require the humongous bulk
 transports

  introduced w/ MT.







  As far as the glass produced in Venice goes;



  Did Venice hyper-specialize in glass production &
 import

  everything else?



  Also, didn't there come a time, remember the TU has
 been

  'trading' for thousands & thousands of
 year,

  when glass production eventually migrated to the places
 that

  once had to rely on imports from Venice?







  How long did that take?







  As a side note, it occurs to me that the one thing that

  can't be 'transferred' is people. People
 will

  have to be transported. I imagine the military, just as
 the

  US military does now, will be constantly moving people

  around.







  I recall that when GDW first published 'Merchant

  Prince'(CT), it was mentioned that they used a BASIC
 prg

  running on an Apple to help develop the system. I got
 them

  to send me a copy & ran it quite a bit.







  It indicated that there was a significant amount of
 civilian

  passenger traffic, even to-from less-important worlds.



  Also, the 'liner  could also carry a small amount
 of

  cargo which could make the difference 'tween making
 or

  losing money on some trips.







  Also, location come into play. For example, Rhylanor, in
 the

  'Marches, never sees FreeTraders as the nearest
 system

  is J2.



  Now, considering Rhylanors UWP, plus the fact that it

  endured a lengthy siege during the 3rdFW, it appears that
 it

  is largely self-sufficient.



  I can see a large amount of both civilian, military,
 &

  gov (it's a subsector cap) traffic, both cargo
 &

  passenger.



  Enough for starships larger than the various
 'Traders?

  Definitely.



  Enough for the gigantic bulk freighters from MT? Not
 even

  remotely close.







  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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