This email was sent from yahoo.com which does not allow forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the sender's email address (philpugliese@yahoo.com) has been replaced with a dummy one. The original message follows:And you are just showing that you don't understand what I'm saying;
I never said there would NOT be a significant amount of long distance trade.
But it would never, just as it was NOT the case in the 17th C, be large enough to require the humongous bulk transports introduced w/ MT.
As far as the glass produced in Venice goes;
Did Venice hyper-specialize in glass production & import everything else?
Also, didn't there come a time, remember the TU has been 'trading' for thousands & thousands of year, when glass production eventually migrated to the places that once had to rely on imports from Venice?
How long did that take?
As a side note, it occurs to me that the one thing that can't be 'transferred' is people. People will have to be transported. I imagine the military, just as the US military does now, will be constantly moving people around.
I recall that when GDW first published 'Merchant Prince'(CT), it was mentioned that they used a BASIC prg running on an Apple to help develop the system. I got them to send me a copy & ran it quite a bit.
It indicated that there was a significant amount of civilian passenger traffic, even to-from less-important worlds.
Also, the 'liner could also carry a small amount of cargo which could make the difference 'tween making or losing money on some trips.
Also, location come into play. For example, Rhylanor, in the 'Marches, never sees FreeTraders as the nearest system is J2.
Now, considering Rhylanors UWP, plus the fact that it endured a lengthy siege during the 3rdFW, it appears that it is largely self-sufficient.
I can see a large amount of both civilian, military, & gov (it's a subsector cap) traffic, both cargo & passenger.
Enough for starships larger than the various 'Traders? Definitely.
Enough for the gigantic bulk freighters from MT? Not even remotely close.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/22/14, Ian Whitchurch <ian.whitchurch@gmail.com> wrote:Date: Friday, August 22, 2014, 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic
To: tml@simplelists.com
http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=JydxSB9tZc6TS63HiAHJcg6SAwighNGJ
"DGP apparently never understood
that the TU had always used the 17th century as a template
instead of the, at that time current, 1980's.
Hence there was a
dichotomy.
If Tim's calculations are
correct (I don't have T5) then it appears that DGP's
template has been abandoned & the original CT has been
put back in place.
I, for one, welcome that
development as I never could buy into the idea that such a
large volume of cargo could continue to be shipped
indefinitely w/o eventually being supplanted by in-system
(not necessarily on-planet) production."
You
are just showing you dont understand either the 17thC or
economics.
OK,
lets deal with the 17thC. Lets see how much glass was made
in Venice alone, as an example. Or look at the trade in wine
or brandy, and the fact it was actually
specialised.
Now,
lets deal with economics. Lets take, I dunno, a grav tank.
Call it 10 dtons and worth MCr3. At Cr750/parsec, for a 10%
cheaper grav tank from mass producing it in Gravtankograd,
we can move it ... 300 parsecs ... before cost plus cost of
shipping is getting close to the cost of the shorter
production run. At KCr300 per dton, a grav tank is only call
it KCr 30 per m3 (including packing space at 10 usable m3
per 14m3 dton).
KCr30
per m3 is Cr30 per kilo, at 1000 kilos to a
m3.
Lets take some, possibly
temporarily fashionable, meat - I can see hand-killed poni
from some worldlet or other being worth Cr30 a kilo to
sufficiently educated palates, especially if average income
in a high tech world is KCr15 a year or so.
Yeah,
you can be eating something produced by technology and
industry so much cheaper - but who would go to *that* dinner
party ?
Put
those two things together, and you can easily justify a lot
of long distance trade in the Imperium.
Ian
Whitchurch
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 6:41 AM, Phil Pugliese (via tml
list) <nobody@simplelists.com>
wrote:
This email was sent from yahoo.com which does not allow
forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the
sender's email address (philpugliese@yahoo.com)
has been replaced with a dummy one. The original message
follows:
The 'large scheduled container ship' theorem
came in w/ MT & DGP.
A later development (later MT or early Virus) was the silly
idea that just about all systems would hyper-specialize
their production.
(Bertil Jonell made the observation that it seems that most
system's production is similar to a system that
exclusively produces left-footed shoes & imports
*everything* else! BTW, anyone have any contact info wrt
Bertil?)
DGP apparently never understood that the TU had always used
the 17th century as a template instead of the, at that time
current, 1980's.
Hence there was a dichotomy.
If Tim's calculations are correct (I don't have T5)
then it appears that DGP's template has been abandoned
& the original CT has been put back in place.
I, for one, welcome that development as I never could buy
into the idea that such a large volume of cargo could
continue to be shipped indefinitely w/o eventually being
supplanted by in-system (not necessarily on-planet)
production.
I believe that someone (Jeff?) posted some text on this
subject a while back that allowed for such w/o endangering
the 3I's revenue which was one the major arguments used
to support MT-DGP's position.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/22/14, Craig Berry <cdberry@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic
To: tml@simplelists.com
Date: Friday, August 22, 2014, 12:50 PM
I've
always thought that most interstellar shipping, like
most
shipping today, would be done by large, scheduled
container
ships. Small independents in their free/far/fat traders
would fill in gaps -- whether that means visiting a
system
without regular freight service (for whatever reason),
or
getting an urgent cargo delivered ahead of the usual
schedule, or carrying something the regulars won't
touch
for legal or other reasons. A free trader trying to
compete
head to head against the big guys is doomed; they
can't
beat the economies of scale. Nor will most honest
business-sophonts do business with a shady tramp
freighter's crew when the fully bonded, easily sued
megacorp is an option.
For shipping volume
calculations, I recommend Far Trader ( http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/fartrader/
); from what I recall, it produced very reasonable
figures.
(The worked example calculating the traffic between the
two
main Vegan worlds made my head spin.)
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at
11:59 AM, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <nobody@simplelists.com>
wrote:
This
email was sent from yahoo.com
which
does not allow forwarding of emails via email lists.
Therefore the sender's email address (philpugliese@yahoo.com)
has been replaced with a dummy one. The original
message
follows:
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/22/14, Timothy Collinson <timothy.collinson@port.ac.uk>
wrote:
Subject: [TML] expected ship traffic
To: "tml@simplelists.com"
<tml@simplelists.com>
Date: Friday, August 22, 2014, 9:53 AM
Hi there,
Am I reading
this correctly?
page 435 of the T5 core
rules give a figure for 'expected ship
traffic'
-
the expected interstellar ship traffic for a
starport.
S = 10^Ix /
H
where:S = total
ships per week
Ix = Importance H = Average Cargo Hold Capacity = 100
for
most
worlds
OK, so I'm looking at
Neala in Ilelish Sector whose importance = 1
So I make that a total of 1
ship every 10 weeks. And a B class
starport!
Is that right or am I
missing something?
Nearby Gypsy has an
Importance of 2 so it manages 1 ship per week. (And
again
a B class starport).
Is traffic really this
low?
cheers
tc
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If that's NOT a typo then it so long to MT's
interpretation of what 'maritime'
(post-container
cargo 20th century Earth) means.
However, even under the original CT definition (17th
century
Earth), it seems a little 'light'.
BTW, how much cargo can the CT Free,Far, &
'Fat'Trader carry?
p.s. I would argue that whether not not a world is on a
J1
'Main' should also factor in as otherwise the
ubiquitous FreeTrader can't go there.
===================================================================================================
-----
The Traveller Mailing List
Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml
Report problems to listmom@travellercentral.com
To unsubscribe from this list please goto
http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=PltOdItWBSgOP4y0Q6abkGbDI1eus0lz
--
Craig Berry (http://google.com/+CraigBerry)
"Eternity is in love with the productions
of time." - William Blake
-----
The Traveller Mailing List
Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml
Report problems to listmom@travellercentral.com
To unsubscribe from this list please goto
http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=EwREIRgLK8vaUEhNlnoNdSGKwnjoID8a
-----
The Traveller Mailing List
Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml
Report problems to listmom@travellercentral.com
To unsubscribe from this list please goto
http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=Qjs81DnfPhuRQ7Rw3I0XVltos3d36yjy
-----
The Traveller Mailing List
Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml
Report problems to listmom@travellercentral.com
To unsubscribe from this list please goto
http://www.simplelists.com/confirm.php?u=EwREIRgLK8vaUEhNlnoNdSGKwnjoID8a
-----
The Traveller Mailing List
Archives at http://archives.simplelists.com/tml
Report problems to listmom@travellercentral.com
To unsubscribe from this list please goto